British File Intervals
Does anyone know any good referance material on the file interval and number of ranks. I have read Howes light infantry exerises togather with referances to 18" interval being standard, but wish to understand the detail regarding close order, order, open order and extended order, the number of ranks employed and how in practice these spacings were measured.

Spartan, well essentially the old ideas about formations that derived from the Seven Years War - ie for a Close Order (ie shoulder to shoulder) three deep line did not survive after Lexington and Concord. Wm Howe, effectively in command of the army at Bunker Hill formed it in 2 ranks. Once he'd done this, the orders for spacing the files appeared in General Orders. There are many problems deriving from the fact that Howe did not codify his tactical approach in a single manual or set of General Orders. The references are therefore piecemeal and incomplete. It is not clear, for example how far his 1774 instruction for light infantry that all changes of formation should be done from the centre of the company rather than either flank was applied in America. Also, Burgoyne seems to have gone further with the 'light infantry' ethos during his period in command of the Canada army in 1776-7. He had all his battalions practising their evolutions at the double, and dressed in LI-style field modified uniforms. It is also likely that file spacings were flexible in Burgoyne's army and could be greater than those favoured by Howe. During this period in the King's American army the term Close Order came to mean a two deep rank with loose files (ie circa 18 in spacing). Open Order came to mean files opened even further than that, but the regiment still operating in a line, and Extended Order meaning skirmish formation. There was considerable flexibility in the application of these ideas. Often battalions would extend to occupy a particular frontage and this might translate into a file separation of 2, 3 or 4 feet - whatever. Some regiments arriving from Britain or Ireland had also been schooled in the old SYW type doctrine. So for example the 80th during the Virginia campaign of 1780 seem to have used the three deep compact line. The most interesting primary sources for this stuff remain manuscript sources. For example there is a most interesting (but tantalisingly brief) memo about the practice of the 1st Light Infantry Battalion in the David Library of the American Revolution, and one by Peebles about the drills used by the grenadier battalions in 1780. Despite the fact that Peebles' journal was published, the drill notes were not included in the book, and remain in the National Archive of Scotland. cheers EC

Thanks for the info, heres some more reflections Howe 1774 instructions state that order has a file interval of 24" yet his orderly books instruct 18". Seems odd that he states 18", would of made sense to stick with 24". From my reading the interval between files is close order is 6", order 18" (24"), Open Order (48"), extended order (120"). I can see how via simple mechanisms close order (elbows at sides), order at 24" (arms length), Open order (Single line arms length odd man drops to rear) can be formed but not order at 18". Perhaps this and extended order were more a matter of practice. Will try and see the sources you mension.

Perhaps 18" was used for line bns and 24" used for 'lights'. Would explain Burgoynes more Light infantry approach leading to wider spacing than Howe favoured Just a thought

Don't know if you have seen this, but a useful "real life" presentation of the '64 Manual and some of the various "orders". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GERVeZ4egRQ I believe that the transfer of the 47th Foot from Halifax to Quebec provided the physical link from Howe's army to Burgoyne's in terms of open files. Certainly Riedesel made the effort to drill the Brunswickers in a similar fashion to his British allies. There is also the famous memo from Phillips c.1780 that suggests using a mix of orders in action, with "close" units backing up "open" units. Whilst it doesn't go into much detail on your specific question, Matthew Spring's new book suggests that light and line infantry didn't oeprate all that differently from each other (in terms of the mechanics of drill/formation).

Not seen the link before, thanks. The open order was as I expected and would result in approx 24 inch interval, re 18" perhaps the hand was raised to hip level on both sides so that the elbows would touch. That way the musket could be held. At 2:06 they perform double open order, appart from the end of the line this would require both arms to be out stretched and if performed as demonstatrated they would not be able to hold the musket (perhaps it was slung?) Will do some more research and let you know what I find. Thanks for the info again.

Spartan, your scheme of 6, 18, 48 or 120 inches is logial - bit I'd be interested if you ever found hard evidence of it. The 1798 Regs for Riflemen stipulated that the files of an extended skimish chain could be up to 12 paces apart. I also think the precise fixing of file distances while useful for 18th Century military pedants (and maybe some 21st Century ones too...) ran rather counter to the light infantry ethos, which emphasised the flexibility to take up position as the ground dictated. The 1824 infantry regs, based on Britain's extensive Peninsular war experience, allowed the commander to space the files at any distance he saw fit. I'm not sure whether you've been in the military Spartan, but the idea that a difference between 18 and 24 ins would be that meaningful in combat doesn't quite add up to me... EC

Not sure exactly what you mean by hard evidence?

Have a better understanding now, bit more reading and I think that I should be clear on every thing.

Oh, never in the military but worked with them, designed MBT's systems (particularly around lethality and survivability)

Spartan what you said about hands on Hipps! has made my day . The open order was as I expected and would result in approx 24 inch interval, re 18" perhaps the hand was raised to hip level on both sides so that the elbows would touch. That way the musket could be held. (perhaps it was slung?) i would love to have seen bunch of british squodies putting there hands on hips with musket slug (oh and sing Im a little tea pot short and stout .) It surely it practical that they would never do this ! the rifle(ex green jacket) i mean musket would never stay on the shouders while doing the dance i mean drill. That got me thinking .would most men have taken there slings of before battle? as this would surly get in the way ?I never done any drill movement with slings on.but hay thats the light division for you ? I know that the wood tops at trooping the colour dont have them on. oh they do have a very nice black leather cover for the rifle guard and a matching SUSAT (sight) cover. Happy gaming Spartan, and thanks for the happy though, I look forward in seeing paul M deploying his guard with me singing "im a little tea pot" as he gets puts them in open order ....8o)

Current thoughts. Close Files 6", arms are hip level Loose Files 18", achieved by non rifle arm as seams of trouses and rifle held at waist height (sounds better than arm of hipp) Open files 30", Left arm fully extended to touch shoulder of next file. Extended files 60", I need to do some more work on this but this is achieved by files extending the opposite arm. Re my comment of rifles slung I have read sources about non rank and file joining the ranks to achieve this spacing and also that this practiced off the battlefield so that men were aquaited with the distance. Well at least now I have got the distances right, bit more work on how it was achieve then moving on to 'American scramble'

Spartan i hope you dont think that i was mocking you,if it came over to you that way i am deeply sorry . I just had a picture in my little head of a bunch of hairy arsed red coats with there hands on hips just before it all kicks off ! as for my mocking tone cornet, hope you could see the funny side of it but maybe its just my english humer happy gaming all H.

Didn't find it mocking at all, actually found it quite funny. Am English myself.