French Revolutionary Wars

French Revolutionary Wars
Recently bought a set of the rules with a view to using them for the above. Have a few of questions: 1) Both the Prussians and Austrians appear to have been trained to use the 3rd rank of their infantry lines to be used as skirmishers. The Prussians actually had scheutzen in each company. How easily can the rules be used to reflect their use, even in the limited way they appear to have been used in practice? 2) Does anyone have the Austrian infantry organisation for 1792 until the later reforms? I am struggling to find it. 3) Am considering rating 'les blancs' as Line and 'les bleus' as Conscript. Any views? Thanks Chad

Some remarks: - The Prussian army used the 3rd rank for detaching skirishing up to 1807 and the Austrian the whole napoleonic period (as some other german armies afaik also did). So no change to the rules afaik. - The austrian army used the same organisation in the french revolution as after 1806 (regiment of 3 or 4 battalions of each 6 companies plus 2 companies of grenadiers). In 1805 this was changed but rechanged for the 1809 campaign) - Your question suggest that you will wargame the 1792 to 1794 period as after that the troops were almalgameted into demi-brigades where (theoretically at least) there was no difference between those two parts and only blues existed. The quality of the blancs I would also rate as line but the blues are more difficult. They were sometimes conscript but sometimes line, sometimes very enthousiastic and sometimes routed very fast. These last two qualities (changing of quality) is something I miss in GdB but needs to be represented. greetings Jan (who is also thinkiing of using GdB for this period)

For Austria, the 1769 regs made particular use of the third rank, from which large Zuege were formed (a Zug was strictly speaking a 1/4 co, but obviously here you a third) for a variety of purposes, including extending the two rank line, flank guards etc. Coburg's 1793 Instructions utilised them as "hit squads", which would move out as small formed units to deal with Frrench skirmishers. In 1794, Mack laid greater emphasis on them as the main source of skirmishers. However, there is no mystique in all this, as entire Austrian regiments (aside from the Grenadiers when operating with them) would break down into skirmishers. The real problem was that the Grenzers and other light troops were in short supply, so skirmishing and breaking units down into more open order to take villages and bad ground had to be done as a matter of necessity, although the senior command tried to keep the lid on it and formally by 96, no more than a thrid of any unit were to be used in such a way to maintain formed troop formations. Skirmishers could be taken from anywhere - the 100 leading Zach's column at Marengo were just volunteers, while even after 1807, von Ense talks about a whole company from his regiment at Wagram being thrown out as a skirmish screen. The 1807 regs tried really to formalise this by putting the clever men in the third rank and setting out a training manual for skirmishers from there to maintain better command and control.

As one of several armies I'm currently putting together I am doing a French one of 1796 based on the OOB for Lonato. Initially this will be Victors brigade made up of the 18 demi-brigade de ligne and part of the 11 demi-brigade de ligne (which part I have no idea!). I think that by this time all the units would be in blue uniforms but would I be able to use the casque helmetted troops from Eureka for the former "regular" ligne battalion ie basically the centre battalion in casque helmets and the other two battalions with bicornes? Or had these units already got rid of the helmets and all battalions are in bicornes? The blurb on Eurekas site regarding the casque equipped troops does say that some were still around in the Italian campaign in 1796 but I havn't been able to confirm if these demi-brigades were so equipped.

Skaran, As far as the helmets being around in '96, they certainly would be, but not as any coherent unit. You would likely just salt them in among the cocked hats. There might even be the occasional white coat left, but not many. It is my understanding that the amalgam, though often portrayed as old line as the 2nd (center) bn and old vols as the 1st and 3rd (flanking) bns, that the companies were actually intermingled to create completely new and integrated 3 battalions. The time you'd have the one line 2 vols is in the 93-94 period when they were brigaded together before they were actually amalgamated. Phil

Makes sense, especially given that 1796 saw the second reorganisation of demi brigades. So if I have this right, basically there would be the three battalions mostly in blue (perhaps with an odd white) and mostly in bicornes but still with a significant number of helmets whether the uniform was blue or white. Also if I'm careful I can rotate out the helmetted troops and replace them with voltigeurs allowing use of the rest of the unit up to around 1807. Great.

I think that anyone who was wearing the old white uniform (the colour of the kings'army) would have been shot or guilotened (or imprisoned of he was lucky); so all blue. Maybe some would be wearing green as of the old light battalions or legions/volunteers. And indeed the first and second amalgame totaly mingled all companies so some would be wearing casques (but more and more disappearing) or bicorns and phrygian cap. There was some other headgear around as caps, a kind of dragoon helmet etc)

The discussion on blue or white coats is very interesting and I have learnt a lot from it and will bow to Jan's obviously well researched line of arguement. I would like to pick up on the discussion on the helmet worn by the French infantry.I tend to agree with the general thrust of what has been written to date on this forum.My own 15mm Revolutionary French have a smattering of helmeted fellows in each demi brigade. I note though in the Eureka advert for the new helmeted infantry the following "the 9th demi-brigade are known to have retained their helmets until at least 1798" .Now I know the Eureka boys do not quote their source but they are not known to be slouches in this area so I do not think this is a throw away comment.Is it possible that other demi brigades retained their helmets ? Could I create a blue coated demi brigade in helmets and use it from 1794 -98 ? I would be interested in what others on the forum think ? Martin

I have seen that statement about the helmets of the 9e Demi-brigade de ligne in the Osprey publication Napoleons Line Infantry. The 9e demi-brigade de ligne from 1796 is not the same as the unit formed in the second reorganisation in 1796. It is this second unit that the note about keeping helmets until 1798 presumable refers to, the original 9e demi-brigade de bataille being renumbered as the 105e demi-brigade d’ligne in 1796. Assuming this is correct then the Napoleon series site http://www.napoleon-series.org/ Gives the donating units of the 1796+ 9e demi-brigade d’ligne as units of the former 2e demi-brigade de bataille (2e Bat, 1er Regt d'Inf - 4e Bat Vol de la Somme and 5e Bat Vol de Paris) 161e demi-brigade de bataille (1er Bat, 89e Regt d'Inf - 9e Bat Vol du Nord and 3e Bat Vol de Paris) As it was the former ligne battalions that had the helmets that would be the 2 battalion, 1st infantry regiment and the 1st battalion 89th infantry regiment that brought them into the 9e demi-brigade. Presumable no more than a third of the demi-brigade was equipped with the casque helmets since the other battalions originated with volunteers. Incidentally the 1e Battalion of the 1e Regt d’Inf ended up in 1796 in the 31e demi-brigade so the battalions were certainly scattered around

I don't remember the source but I have read somewhere that not all old line regiments received the helmet and some volunteers did receive helmets. Remember that the helmet was only ordered in 1791, and then only up to 1794. So deliverence to the front line troops in wartime would be difficult.

It is likely that for the majority of demi-brigades of this period that no one really knows what was being worn by whom. So you are probably safe in mix and matching. I was unaware that any of the volunteer units received the casque but if so it makes mixed uniformed battalions even more likely.

In Funcken "Les soldats de la revolution" there are some volunteer light infantry in casquets (chasseur de la legion germanique 1792, chasseur de voluntairs 1792, chasseur de Paris 1793 en des Garde Nationale 1793). As stated in the text the light nfatnry (later demi brigade legere) received the casquet. Light infantry in casquets are shown in Osprey MAA403 (legion GErmanique and compagnie franch de l'égalite). In the same MAA is stated"The volunteers would wear a 3 cornered chapeau, although some units were issued infantry casquets". REference was to the line infantry. In the Maa403 is shown a light infantrynan in 1797 (2nd legion de Frans" with a leather cap with black horsehair, Haythornthwaite (uniforms of the French revolution) shows a voluntaire de Santerre 1792 and a private of the legion des Allobroges 1792 in casquet. My conclusion is, that the light infantry volunteers (as the legions) mostly would wear the casquet and some line voluteers.

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