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Cornet- 01-07-2009
No - in essence word came back that Polly Oliver's son, who retains the moulds does not believe that re-starting production is worth his while. One or two other people have been active on this question since though and you never know, the issue may get re-opened. After all, it just takes one collector with deep pockets to under-write a new production and they might reappear...
EC
I had read that Polly Oliver, after selling off the ACW line, was then looking for a buyer for the AWI line. If the son doesn't want to spin up for production, then why not sell or license the molds? Surely, they're not doing him any good sitting on the shelf collecting dust.
What kind of treasure would the Polly Oliver molds command for outright purchase? I hate to ask such a rude and impertinent question, but these highly regarded specimens have been out of production for 5+ years now.
@Ronan, thanks for your remarks. I've heard similar things about Polly Oliver's cavalry. Also, do you have a primary source on the fusiliers' battle dress, particularly as regards their bearskin caps?
Ronan the Librarian- 01-07-2009
Cornet,
Yes, unfortunately the PO cavalry have a kind of awkwardness about them that just looks all the more out of place because of the quality of the foot figures. Shame.
On the subject of bearskin caps, these were quite expensive and tended to be worn for parades and other official duties only. All Fusiliers - and Grenadiers/Lights for that matter - were issued with hats as well, for all other occasions.
7th Foot - Nothing conclusive, but no record of the regiment wearing caps in action in Canada (1775-76), New York (1777) or Philadelphia (1778). I've not come across a mention of any caps being lost when Fort Chambly surrendered to the Americans during the start of the invasion of 1775. Fur-covered forage caps appear to have been worn during the winter months in Canada. A Don Troiani painting - researched by the usually reliable James Kochan - shows the 7th at Cowpens in hats; this group was composed mainly of recruits, so may well not have been issued caps before going to America anyway.
21st Foot - Again, no mention of bearskin caps being worn whilst the unit was in N America. The cut-down hat-cap, characteristic of the Burgoyne army's standard campaign uniform, was worn during the Saratoga campaign. The 21st was also a very poor regiment, reputedly, and the absence of caps could well have been an economy measure - eg items would not be replaced if worn out or lost. You often find Inspection Returns referring to regiments being ill-equipped, and wearing cheaper or sub-standard kit.
23rd Foot - A watercolour (by Lt Williams of the 23rd, IIRC) shows a sentry in Boston clearly wearing his bearskin cap, just before the outbreak of the war, so they were worn in America. However, there is no reference to caps being worn or lost at Lexington/Concord; due to their cost, they were regimental items, rather than being owned by the men themselves, and so any losses would have been recorded. No account of the 23rd mentions caps being worn in any of the battles fought by the regiment, and in 1780(?) there is a letter to their agent asking for more hats, but specifically saying no more caps were needed and suggesting these were in storage. We also know that by 1779 at least, and possibly earlier, the Grenadier Battalions had put their caps into storage and no longer wore them in the field (Peebles' journal). In 1778, Howe - the 23rd's Colonel - got stroppy with Percy, Colonel of the 5th, because the latter regiment had worn bearskin caps at a parade in January of that year, whilst the 23rd did not (the 5th's caps were a controversial SYW battle honour, they were not fusiliers until 1836).
I can't recall whether or not Mark Urban's excellent book "Fusiliers" went into this in any great detail, but I do recall talking to him about this whilst he was researching it, and he knew about Dearborn confusing the Grenadier Battalion for the RWF at Bunker Hill, which suggests the 23rd did have their caps with them in Boston and had worn them.
I hope that helps.
RtL
Ronan the Librarian- 01-07-2009
Cornet- 01-07-2009
Wow, you seem particularly well read on this topic. I wish I were as knowledgeable.
You've inspired me to go back and check a passage I'd read last year from Thomas McGuire's
The Philadlephia Campaign, Volume 1.: Brandywine and the Fall of Philadelphia. On page 210, McGuire recounts a stirring sequence where the 1st Battalion of Grenadiers prepare for battle, including a lengthy description of their bearskin caps. McGuire indirectly quotes Colonel Meadows commanding,
"Grenadiers, put on your caps; for damn'd fighting and drinking I'll match you against the world!"
The next several pages describing the Grenadiers assault are amazing. The book is remarkably well written and heavily footnoted -- a rare combination. Honestly, this is one of the best books I've read on the subject. Highly recommended.
Okay, it's not a primary source; and it's about the Grenadiers, not the Fusiliers -- but it's the best I can do on short notice. ;)
Giles- 01-08-2009
"Fusiliers" also quotes a chap, I can never remember who, remarking on what a stirring sight it was to see the grenadiers put on their bearskins prior to advancing at Brandywine (or was it Monmouth...I can never remember the battle either :oops: ). All round, it's an excellent book, with a harrowing account of Bunker Hill.
Chris Ginn- 01-08-2009
What happened to the ACW moulds as I would like some more of those figures?
baxterj- 01-08-2009
werent the PO ACW line just the basis for the Battle Honours/AB lines?
John
Ronan the Librarian- 01-08-2009
Cornet/Giles - Yes, Brandywine; Lt Hale of the 45th's grenadier company comments on the Grenadiers pulling on their caps before advancing. as you say, Cornet, Grenadiers rather than Fusiliers - I've no doubt that the Fusilier regiments' grenadier companies retained their caps until the whole grenadier force put them into storage (apart from economic considerations, it made it easier to bring it replacements from the battalion companies).
I believe the ACW figures are still available, either from Fighting 15s here in the UK, Eureka in Oz, or Battle Hono(u)rs in the US (the BH ranges are about to be carried by Timecast in the UK, along with OG 15mm, IIRC).
I always thought the ACW line - like the Greek city states range - was actually done by Tony B himself, rather than Polly Oliver.
Cornet- 01-08-2009
According to this 10 year old TMP post, the ACW line was returned its copyright holder Tony Barton. This seems to substantiate RtL's belief that Barton had created them. Again, according to the TMP post, Barton planned to add the Polly Oliver ACW figures to the AB Figures line.
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/762801/
I'd still like to know how to get the Polly Oliver AWI figures in production again.
Cornet- 01-08-2009
@Giles, McGuire's Grenadier cap description from my post above regarded the Battle of Brandywine. It's entirely possible that "Fusiliers" relies on the same primary source material. Though I suppose it's also possible that another primary source describes the caps again at Monmouth.
I live in Philadelphia, so it's very easy for me to distinguish between Brandywine and Monmouth -- Brandywine was the last major engagement before Philadelphia was captured; Monmouth was the first major engagement after the British evacuated Philadelphia.
I try to remember battle chronology by army movements; in the Philadelphia campaign, the British Army left New York City by ship and landed in the Chesapeake Bay at Elks Head, Maryland; they then moved northeastward to Philadelphia and captured it; after evacuating Philadelphia, the British Army moved northeastward again, returning to New York City. If you know where Brandywine and Monmouth are on the map, the sequence becomes clear. (If you need a mnemonic device, alphabetically "B" comes before "M.")
I do understand the difficulty though. I am still challenged by the chronology of battles that occurred while the British were in Philadelphia (e.g., Paoli, Germantown, Fort Mercer, Fort Mifflin). Once an army is stationary, my system breaks down.
Timmo- 02-01-2009
Re Polly Oliver
If this range were to reappear I would almost certainly be tempted by them. From the images I've seen I always had the misplaced thought that Barton has actually sculpted them but obviously not.
I would have thought that somebody like Nic at Eureka would be interested in the moulds and masters and that surely if Oliver's son was paid a royalty on sales or a decent sum for outright purchase or moulds, the rights and most importantly the masters then a deal may be struck.
I would be very interested to know the sum required to purchase the line. Perhaps a consortium could be put together? Its a real shame when gems like this are lost. There's A N other range I'm trying to find out about that has disappeared before production even began but so far the last known owner hasn't replied to my email. I live in hope…
Cornet- 02-24-2009
Perhaps a consortium could be put together?
Oh, that's a good idea. Count me in.
cosmickanga- 02-28-2009
Re Polly Oliver
I would have thought that somebody like Nic at Eureka would be interested in the moulds and masters
Eureka has its own range of AWI planned in 15mm/18mm, although it may be some time before we see it.
I understand that Ian at Fighting 15s had tracked down the Polly Oliver moulds last year but was unable to secure them either at a fixed price or on a licensing deal. I gather he thinks that the family probably wants a price that would make the moulds uneconomic for anyone to bring back into production, or that someone has simply made a better offer.
Cornet- 02-28-2009
I gather he thinks that the family probably wants a price that would make the moulds uneconomic for anyone to bring back into production ...
Ah, that would be unfortunate. The Polly Oliver line is very nice, but not perfect and not irreplaceable. Their quality will eventually be surpassed and at that moment value of the Polly Oliver molds will drop precipitously.
I've spent the past couple weeks filing the mold lines off a bag of Jeff Valent Studio's 15mm AWI Contitentals. After spending focused time with them, I can attest that they are too are not perfect; but I feel they're also underrated. One warning - the command set includes color bearers with molded flags that look like they may be difficult to paint.
I've been considering trying my hand at sculpting once I finish these fellows up. I'm pretty sure I can create a reasonable figure at 15mm, but I suspect sculpting at 28mm might be more satisfying.
Ronan the Librarian- 02-28-2009
It would be interesting to see what Eureka made of a 15-18mm AWI range - for some strange reason, nobody has done it well in this size.
Cornet is quite right - Polly Oliver is NOT the acme of the figure world for this period in the way that, say, AB is for 18mm Naps and 20mm WW2; the infantry are nice, but the cavalry are nothing special. A new range by someone making a fresh start might stimulate interest in AWI at this size.
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