Hi all Rohan. pauls only allowed to use musket armed spartans when i deploy my war rhino, black ninja Immortals (with silver masks ) and my battle troll... with my persian army.. paul ( and jon) am happy to try your admendments out next club meeting ,mee rebels are all tooled up ready for a scrap! all 16 regiments plus 3 batt of guns .. (not sure if i can hold my self back and let you brits come on in the old fashion way but will bite mee tonge and hold the line..(ish 8o) ) and yes you can use your Wooden tops ( guard regiments ) if you like . oh read the latest WI mag on Tarleton hes on the same lines as mr Nay ! sounds like a bloke just up mee street. Fix swords advance to Contact paul happy gaming all

Charge
Looks like a slow game on the horizon we can have Paul in charge of the British Cavalry and Von Hesh (who charges at everything) can be in command of the Hessians. Perhaps I will have time to Drill my milita to make the grade as 2nd line!

Spartans . . . . awesome :-)

Ronan, I'm a little surprised that you argue that British bayonet charges went in smoothly from the start of the 1777 campaign. I think there were lots more examples of them 'failing their morale test' and not being able to close to the assault. I would cite the battle of Freeman's Farm, where according to the rather good Osprey, 'repeated British bayonet charges' were repulsed by the Americans, Brandywine where the 4th Brigade faltered in front of the Americans final defensive line, and Monmouth where the Grenadiers' attack was stopped by heavy American fire. I'm pretty sure there were some others too - such as at Newport in 1778- but I've not had time to research them. I think the fact that someone may have got their charge in during many of these British assaults often disguises the fact that others faltered. In game terms after all, this is no more than ordering a charge with three units and accepting that only one or two might get in. Maybe we need to give the British a further +1 on morale in these attacking situations, but I still believe the chances of failure, nb for disrupted units, should be significant. EC

Eclaireur, Good points; I would answer them as follows: Freeman's Farm - As you say, they were repulsed, which suggests they charged home and were thrown back, rather than failing to go in at all. Actually, it is possible that the odd charge did not reach its target, as they were charging mostly into thick woods which might have been difficult to penetrate physically (rather than morally) - if only the author had thought to be more specific...... Monmouth - A few of Monckton's battalion (2nd) were certainly stopped in this manner (Monckton was killed by cannister trying to storm the causeway), but most either collapsed from exhaustion before getting that far, or simply fell back after realising that they had gotten too far forward and become isolated from the rest of the army (eg Hale's account). In any event, the extreme heat, fatigue from their return march, and at least one previous successful charge, makes the fact that they got that far all the more exceptional, and has similarities to Webster's brigade at GCH. Brandywine - This does seem to be a genuine case of a "virgin" charge by fresh troops actually failing to make contact with the enemy, which is the kind of thing that I was thinking of (apologies if I did not make that clear). Worth noting that these were "run of the mill" line troops (37th, 46th and 64th) with no prior combat experience; any examples from the Newport action would involve similar units (22nd, 38th, 43rd and 54th, from memory - although the middle two were at Bunker Hill). I think the fact that someone may have got their charge in during many of these British assaults often disguises the fact that others faltered. That is certainly possible, given the limited and/or confused knowledge we have of many of the actions of the war. However, there do not seem to be that many American accounts of repusling Regulars in this way. RtL

Ronan, To be frank 'Repulse' equals something worse than a faltering of the attack in my book. It means your dice roll was even worse and you got 'Retreat' rather than 'Falter' - or they lost the melee. As for grenadiers collapsing due to heat at Monmouth, of course you're right. But that's 3 DPs which has caused them to falter on their charge morale test isn't it ? The grenadiers at Monmouth or 4th brigade at Brandywine can be put down as 'falters'. But the 47th or 5th at Bunker's Hill, in their initial attacks on the redoubt or breastwork were most definitely 'Retreat' results on the morale table. The fact they fell back, worked off DPs, and resumed the assault doesn't change that. I think the grenadiers attempt to counter-attack the Americans at Bemis Heights was also a 'Retreat' result on the dice. The same goes for those Line units at Freeman's Farm or the first attack by the 33rd on the American third line at Guilford or the 23rd's attack on the Virginia militia. As for the early period - which I appreciate you're not disputing: 'Retreat' or even 'Rout' result for the LI at Concord; 'Falter' for the grenadiers at Bunkers Hill; an initial Falter for Grant's brigade at Long Island before they rallied off DPs and moved forward; 'Retreat' for the LI at Throgg's Neck before they got their act together and attacked again; ditto the 42nd at Harlem; Falter, as you've mentioned at White Plains; Princeton, some poor results there too... I would argue that there were 'Falter' or 'Retreat' results on the British player's dice in most of the major battles of the war. Camden is a glorious exception, but a pretty small battle, all things considered. What you end up wanting is a system for British troops which will produce 'Falters' often but not most of the time, and retreats very occasionally. I'm open to the idea that the Brit commander needs a bit more confidence of the attack going in, but I just want the odds to allow him to get a nasty shock :twisted: EC p.s. don't knock that Saratoga Osprey, it's beazer ! p.p.s why didn't the commanders ever note their dice rolls ?

don't knock that Saratoga Osprey, it's beazer ! Is "beazer" army slang? Or is there a typo and it should be "beaver" (in which case I think I may understand the reference)? :?

Giles, it's a posh, comic book sort of word meaning 'very good'. The only person I've ever heard use it was Boris Johnson :roll: EC

If you want to make British bayonet charges easier here is a simple solution: In the sequence of play (for charges): Do this: 1. Charging unit moves 1 die 2. Defending/Target unit takes a morale test 3. If the defending unit passes, they can fire 4. The charging unit takes a morale test, if they recieve any hits. 5. If they pass or if not morale test was necessary then roll the 2nd die to close. 6. Fight the melee This should allow charging units a better chance to close or run off their target. It should allow better morale class defenders to stand and fire and poorer defenders to retreat or fire poorly. Of course they might make charges easier for militia types in addition to better units. You could also add in a simple dice roll before any charge movement is rolled for: If a unit wishes to charge, but has DPs; then roll 1D6. You must roll higher than the number of DPs in order to charge. So if a unit has 2 DP's they must roll a 3-6 to initiate the charge. You could even subract "1" from the die roll for 2nd Class, Militia or Levy units. So an American militia unit with 2 DPs needs to roll a 4-6 in order to charge. Just some random thoughts on the charge procedure. As for melee; I think the rules favor the charging unit well enough. Another possible change would be to allow counter-charging only for mounted troops. Counter charging just doesn't seem very appropriate for our "linier" period. We find it difficult for any quality of brigade to attack a well defended brigade frontally. Flanking the defenders and/or exploiting a small breakthrough have been the most successful methods to attack. One last thought: One of the best things about BG! is that is provides us a game set during the AWI, a game in which both sides seems to have some chance of success. A game that allows British baynet charges to rule the day (even with historical precendence) quickly becomes a boring exercise. Lets not over do things and take tha fun our of the game. Mike B

I like this, though would offer a slight adjustment that is the unit with the higher natural morale test first. I.e. Take the morale modifiers and the lower rolls first. The reason I suggest this is that even if you are in a bad way and your enemy is worse you probably charge.

Sorry should of real lower natural morale tests first. Work and fun don't combine

EC said: do I take it then that you're suggesting -1 for American morale and melee ? Or is this purely training grade dependent ? From the start of this, I was suggesting morale modifications only as that was where I perceived the potential issue to be. That poorer quality America units seemed to have a habit of avoiding/breaking from a bayonet charge, even an open order one. Still not convinced that giving the Brits a +1 to initiate the charge is too much of a plus but again this could be limited to charges against 2nd Line and militia as poor quality units could be spotted on the field from their general deportement? I think these minor changes would help promote more bayonet charges in the correct circumstances and hopefully provide more historical responses without unbalancing the game. After all, I play American more than British as it doesn't hurt as much when I lose :twisted: regards Paul

To be frank 'Repulse' equals something worse than a faltering of the attack in my book. It means your dice roll was even worse and you got 'Retreat' rather than 'Falter' - or they lost the melee. I think this means they lost the melee. Seems appropriate for Freemans Farm, as discussed above, as repeated charges seems to indicate getting the charges off wasn't the problem. It was connecting effectively to disperse the Americans that was; bayonet charges were not that effective in woods apparently. I suspect the terrain spread the troops out so that there was no "mass" to the charge and it enabled the target, even if invountarily, to disperse and yet be rallied again. p.p.s why didn't the commanders ever note their dice rolls ? If they had done all our theories could be knocked into a cocked hat. Or possibly a slouch. 'Falter' for the grenadiers at Bunkers Hill Have you been playing lots of Napoleonics recently EC? That said, "Falter" does sound better than "Halt with 2DP's" outside of a game :D regards Paul

Paul and others... I think the best way to go on this might be for Conscripts of Levy to take an additional -1 on their morale throw when charged by Line or Elite troops. I can't say, by the way Paul, that your victorious British regiments at last year's Long Island game had much trouble charging - even prepared earthworks :wink: but let's try the mod in a few games and see what people think. As for Napoleonics, I was v. pleased to have taken part in the Wagram game at the weekend - great fun :D EC

Agreed, time for a few tests to see what happens and I will try it on 2nd Line or worse as a starter. I think you know perfectly well that the reason the British regiments charged so effectively was that I had nothing to do with it :cry: .All my subordinates did the die rolling and I was quietly having kittens when a certain commander of the Grenadiers brigade blithely marched up to the Lines to storm them, and promptly did so. The few pictures already posted do show that Wagram looked a really good game. And in a pretty good location too. regards Paul