General de Brigade

[Chris Ginn]

Can you clarify what the intent is with these.

Initially I thought you just ignored these and did not model them, but infantry without battalion guns lost a fire factor.

However, it was pointed out that for the canister rules from battalion guns, you need to know where the guns actually are located.

As I need to increase the size of my Austrian and Kries units from 16/12 to 24/18, it occurs to me this could be easily acheived by adding a base with a battalion gun on it, and incorporating it into the battalion. I would have a slight problem when moving through rough terrain, but that is the job for Croats and Grenadiers, besides which I could easily come up with a marker to show the guns had been lost.

However, that would mean in some circumstances the gun base would fire canister and also as 8 or 6 musketeers, which seems odd. However, if I used a seperate model for battalion guns, posted in front of the battalion (where they were normaly located) that would appear to block the fire of part of the battalion, or do you ignore the guns and fire through, which is essentialy the same as I am proposing.

If I model battalion guns, were Austrian and Kries battalion gunners uniformed as per their regt, or as per artillery?
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Chris G

[Tarleton 1971]

I think putting the battalion guns on the field would be very eccentric and desirable.... fits the period well. also it would break up the linear aspect of of the infantry formations nicely.
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"Shorten your stirups, check the click of your trigger and balance your blade....ridin' a raid"

AWI,SYW,Jacobite '45 - 28mm

[Chris Ginn]

Having tried seperate battallion guns, as a kind of sub unit with 15mm figures, we have come to the realisation that they are a 'blasted nuisance'. I am about to try putting them on a base in the infantry line as a decorative item, but the cannister factor we will ignore.

There is a school of thought that we should add +2 for cannister to the Infantry fire factor, but I am pretty certain that is not what the rules intend, although the effect seems to be pretty much the same as one gun firing at +2.

The problem I have with them is that Grenadier battalions seem to become somewhat of a liability, being +1 for elite, -1 for no battalion guns, vs the line unit which would then be at +2 for battalion guns firing cannister, or on the alternative interpretation, at + 0, with one gun firing at +2.

This gets worse with Kries grenadiers which in some instances cannot really claim to be Elite.
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Chris G

[Loudon]

The way I understand things is, and I very well could be incorrect, but: if you are using the optional rule of placing battalion guns on the table, then the -1 modifier for no battalion gun is ignored, the battalion simply does not receive the benefit of having a gun supporting it if it does not have one. However if you are not placing guns on the table but factoring them in to your battalions using the normal method, then battalions such as French units or Austrian and Prussian grenadier units would take a -1 when firing.

In addition, as Angus points out in a later post in this forum, the modifier of +2 for battalion guns firing canister within 6" should not appear on the quick reference sheets but in the special rules section that deals with using battalion guns alternatively. This modifier only applies when the guns are being fielded on the table and not when they are only factored in to the battalions. Hope that helps.

About artillery crew uniforms; you must forgive me but I do not know what you mean by Kries. As far as Austrian crews go, they maintained the color of the artillery when they served on battalion guns attached to infantry regiments. The color of these uniforms from my understanding is under a tad bit of speculation, but the general consensus is that they were a blend Fawn Brown and light Grey that is sometimes contemporaneously referred to as "Wolfs Grey".

[Chris Ginn]

Kries, means 'circle' and refers to the army of the German Emperor (Empire). This would normally be the Ruler of Austria, but Marie Teressa was disqualified by virtue of her sex, so it was her husband.

The Kreis was a sort of early NATO, designed to defend the German States, but not everybody agreed as to who the empire should be defended against. The Kries army was under Austrian Direction, and a substantial proportion of its forces were contributed by Austria. As a General rule the Protestant contingents were sympathetic to Prussia, and the Catholic states were more pro Austrian.

A Futher inhibition was that many of the Princes and Electors, prefered not to spend money on their armed forces, consequently many were pretty abysmal. The various states were grouped into 'circles', who could contribute whole regiments or small contingents to regiments. These contingent regiments were often the worst.

Try Googling Kries for a more detailed explanation.
Its not unusual that you have never heard of it, most wargamers have not.

I have answered the gunnner question for myself, it appears they wore artillery uniforms, not regimental one, but it is likly some privates were supplied to help manoever the guns.

If You want lots of Pretty Uniforms in different colours, thye Kries is ideal.

Protestant states tended to wear Blue coloured uniforms a la Prussia, Catholic states white as per Austria.

Not all the units are Crap, Hesse Darmstat covered the Allies retrear from Rosbach, and again at Torgau. Blau Wartzberg was also a distinguished regiment. You also have a good solid core of Austrian Troops and sone crack Austian Cuirassier regts.

This seems to just leave the question of where do you put the Battalion guns, in front of the centre of the battalion, or the grenadier co for the British, as historicaly, on the flank, where they were not historicaly deployed. If the former, can the battallion fire through then as if they are not there?
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Chris G

[angus konstam]

Chris,

The way the rules are set up, you don't need to show battalion guns on the table. They've already been built in to the firing factors. As most battalions of the period had them, we made it a negative factor if they're not attached to the unit, rather than a more fiddly positive one if they were.

That also means that they don't get a bonus for firing canister. I'm sorry if the rules were a little hazy on that point, but the factor only applies to guns which are physically there on the tabletop. In effect, the +2 for firing at point blank when charged is our way of showing this at its most effective - a timely blast designed to shred oncoming foot or horse!

Of course, there's an optional rule to include battalion guns on the tabletop. Our experience is similar to yours - we found them a fiddle, and besides, they spoiled the aesthetics of the game. If you disagree, or if you're using the rules at a 1:20 rather than a 1:40 ratio, then you might want to invoke the optional rule on p.66 to have them present on the tabletop. Then of course, they act just like normal guns, with the limitations of crew size and morale mentioned in the optional rule.

I understand your comments about grenadiers, but then again they're not designed to be used in the firing line. They're "one shot wonder offensive weapons", designed to be hurled at the enemy. They also tend to be smaller and more maneoeverable (the units, not the soldiers!), so that goes some way to giving them a tabletop edge.

I hope that clears things up for you. As for the uniforms of the crew, I'm just the rules guy, and someone somewhere will be able to give you a painstakingly detailed answero your question!

Best Wishes,

Angus Konstam