General de Brigade

[ptl1815]

Can anybody give me some hints on the British uniforms at the Battle of Hobkirk Hill. I need some help on what the loyalist forces wore and their colors;
King's Americans
NY Volunteers
Volunteers of Ireland

Plus I am interested to know what Flags they carried for each loyalist unit. any help would be greatly appreciated. I plan to use mainly Perry minis but I am not sure if the loyalist forces wore the British uniform or not. Thanks for any help

PTL

[Gentleman Johnny]

PTL,
Hello, without stepping on toes I would like to point to the parallel discussion within the MAA Loyalist Troops thread; RtL has added a link to the Vol of Ireland uniform in there, but I shall leave it at that and not muddy the water.
GJ

[Ronan the Librarian]

Volunteers of Ireland - red coats with green collar/cuffs/brandenburgs, officers' lace not known (I'd go for gold though).

New York Volunteers - red coats faced buff or possibly blue, officers' lace gold.

King's Americans - red coats faced blue, officers' lace gold.

As these were taken onto the American establishment as the 2nd, 3rd and 4th American Regments respectively (and the VoI and KA later joined the British Establishment as the 105th and 110th Foot), I would say these were amongst the best equipped and uniformed of the Loyalist corps, so use British figures, or uniformed Continentals as some Loyalist corps had no buttonhole lace.

From the fact that most of them got away to Canada, the lack of any surviving colours - or evidence thereof, eg paintings, fragments - suggests that they probably didn't have any, or if they did, that they were not carried in the field (as was the case with most British regiments). They were expensive items to produce and given the frequent changes of facing colour and amalgamations, would have taken time, as well as money, to produce.

My source is Philip Katcher's King George's Army 1775-1783: A Handbook of British, American and German regiments. Long OOP but should be available from your public library via interloan; second hand copies occasionally surface, but are expensive.
_________________
You can lead a horse to water, but a toy soldier can no longer be lead (due to Health & Safety Regulations).

[Belisarius]

King George's Army 1775-1783: A Handbook of British, American and German regiments

RtL has mentioned this a few times in answering some of my questions and it seems worth a purchase. There were a couple on Abebooks.co.uk - one at £22 and another (no longer there ) at £16.

Hope it's worth the purchase!

Cheers

Andy

[ptl1815]

wow...thanks r the quick response. It is very much appreciated. I just ordered some figs from Perry, so the info will be put to good use. I am new to the period after spending the last few years painting WAB medievals. i did not realize most British regiments did not carry their colors. I will probably get a color for the lone Brtish line unit at Hobkirk and skp the colors for the loyalist units...thanks again

[Ronan the Librarian]

Having said the Loyalist units probably didn't have colours.....

.....apparently Ensign Thomas Flynn carried the colour (singular) of the Volunteers of Ireland at Hobkirk's Hill. Unfortunately, there is no surviving record that I can recall of what it looked like. However......

.....a good portion (about 80) of the VoI came from the former Roman Catholic Volunteers. This is supposedly that latter unit's colour, although I have never seen any evidence that this is anything other than pure conjecture on someone's part (it's actually on a Danish wargaming website). Also, I suspect much of the VoI was Protestant, which would not have gone down well. Still, if you want a flag for your VoI, nobody can prove it ain't so.

http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/awi/loyalist/roman_catholic_volounteers.jpg
_________________
You can lead a horse to water, but a toy soldier can no longer be lead (due to Health & Safety Regulations).

[Gentleman Johnny]

"Nice flag should always trump reality on the tabletop!"

GJ

[Axebreaker]

[Gentleman Johnny]

Nice to have you back AB, and 'Here, Here' to your get-it-to-look-right comments
You are correct; that is EXACTLY what I was getting at!
but... it is in quote marks as it was an unattributed RtL remark... see the Osprey MAA 450 thread.
I'm pondering the conversion requirements of the VoI (and may need to start with Austrians ) but have 'saved' and stashed away the 'nice flag' for later use
We know some units carried their colours because they were either captured or were known to have been smuggled to safty, although it probably is accurate that many units carried no colours in the field; where is the fun in that? If we can't prove it - improvise.
GJ

[Axebreaker]

[Waldorf]

Re Volunteers of Ireland
Think there is consistent opinion that they had green facing with green Brandenburg type lace on the front of the jackets. Not been convinced yet they they all wore small light inf type caps later in the South. For Loyalists, I still quite like the idea of some lack of uniformity with tricorns and slouch hats etc, maybe a few in lt inf caps.

I have read about the possible Roman Catholic influence and seen a website showing green flag with a Chritian cross. However, i ahve also read about the protestant influence. So I quite like the "nod" to the Irish heritage with a green flag possibly showing an irish harp in gold. Personal preference and no historical authenticity that I can identify.

[DJB24124]

With regard to the standard under discussion, surely it is up to others to prove the owner is wrong, whatever his decision, rather than the other way round.
Naturally this goes for most other situations as well.
That's my opinion and it's up to you to prove me wrong

DaveB

[Ronan the Librarian]

The flag in question is linked (somewhat tenuously) to the Roman Catholic Volunteers, the remnants of which were transferred into the Volunteers of Ireland, so the flag itself is Catholic in design.
_________________
You can lead a horse to water, but a toy soldier can no longer be lead (due to Health & Safety Regulations).