General de Brigade

[Belisarius]

Back in May last year there was a thread http://generaldebrigade.13.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=2978 querying the OOB for Guilford Courthouse based on figures on Osprey etc. Eclaireur responded and there was various comments on how the 71st strength was wrong in the BG scenario and some discussion on the strength of the Guards. Eclaireur also commented that he had thought of redoing the scenario.

With the recent publication of Long, Obstinate and Bloody (which I've just finished and can highly recommend) I think the time has come for the Guilford Courthouse scenario to be revamped - possibly for inclusion in the third BG scneario book?

Tomorrow, or later if I can stay awake, I'll pull out the units sizes from LOaB and start putting together another OOB which hopefully we can discuss here. Eclaireur had suggested he may move to 1:15 for the battle. I'd also like to consider it at 1:10, mainly because I really like the look of the units at this scale and also because I'd like to investigate how best to represent this scale and the command structure at this scale in BG.

Any comments appreciated. I've even done a poll just because I've never done one before!

Hopefully I'll post more later or tomorrow.

Cheers

Andy
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[Ronan the Librarian]

I have to "fess up" to voting for 1:10 (but thanks for thinking of me!!!) as it is the most practical size for the scenario books, which need to be aimed at "normal" wargamers.

OK, that's probably an oxymoron......
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[Belisarius]

OK, here's a start.

The OoB from the original rulebook is as follows. I'll abbreviate slightly as I'm using an awful keyboard and it'll take ages other wise.

British

Lt. Col. Webster's Brigade
33rd Foot, 16 figs, Elite
23rd Foot, 16 figs, Line
Skirmishers (4 Hessian, 6 Brit), 10 figs, Elite

Maj Gen Leslie's Brigade
71st Foot, 24 figs, Line
IR von Bose, 18 figs, Line
British Legion Foot, 9 Skirmishers, 2nd Line
RA 3 Pdrs, 2 model guns, Line

Brigadier O'Hara's Brigade
1st Guards, 12 figs, Elite
2nd Guards, 12 figs, Elite
British Legion Horse, 9 figs, Line

NB Guards deployed 480 men. Choose 2x12, 1x24 or 1x18 + 6 skirmishers. 71st were miscounted as 2 battalions assumed not 1.

American

Butler
1st NC Militia, 18 figs, Levy
2nd NC Militia, 18 figs, Levy
3rd NC Militia, 12 skirmishers, Levy
Singleton's Battery, 6pdr, 1 model gun, 2nd Line

Stevens
1st Va Militia, 16 figs, Militia
2nd Va Militia, 16 figs, Militia
Washington's Horse, 4 figs, 2nd Line
Virginia Rifles, 8 skirmishers, 2nd Line

Lawson
3rd Va Militia, 16 figs, Militia
4th Va Militia, 16 figs, Militia
Lee's Horse, 4 figs, 2nd Line
Virginia Rifles, 8 figs, 2nd Line

Williams
1st Md Cont. Regt., 16 figs, Line
5th Md Cont. Regt., 16 figs, 2nd Line
Finlay's Battery, 6 pdr, 1 model gun, 2nd Line

Huger
4th Va Cont. Regt, 18 figs, Line
5th Va Cont. Regt, 18 figs, Line

And broadly speaking, Butler is the first line, Stevens and Lawson the second and Huger and Williams the third.

Novak's War of Independence in the South has higher figures for a lot of units e.g. 300 for each Guards battalion, but broadly concurs with what we have here. I don't have my Osprey to hand.

I'll post this for starters as it'll take me a while to type up the info from Howard and Babits.

Back in a bit.

Andy
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[mikeb]

Rohnan wrote:

"have to "fess up" to voting for 1:10 (but thanks for thinking of me!!!) as it is the most practical size for the scenario books, which need to be aimed at "normal" wargamers."

I'm not sure I understand your point and I definatly don't agree that 1:10 is the ideal or practical size for normal gamers.

FYI ... It was the 1:20 scale scope of the game and scenarios that drew me to BG!. If the game and scenarios had been designed around 1:10 I doubt I would have given the rule book a second glance. Maybe over in the UK, where you guys pool your resources for games, 1:10 scale seems like a good idea. But over here (US) we (or one of us) often have to supply both armies. The size of battles in the AWI is a perfect setting for 1:20. Nice looking models in nice looking (sized) units and most battles are affordable in cost and time. 1:10 scale doubles the cost and time.

There is nothing in the new Guilford CH book that changes anything in the orginal Guilford scenario expect the sizes of some of the units. That is an easy fix. The Guilford sceanrio, as is, is a great starting point for BG!. You can learn the rules, use a mix of troop types and as a player you are faced with the same or similar problems that Cornwalis and Greene faced. What more could you ask for from a game? Cluttering the table with a magnatude of small units will only slow the game down and make little if any significant improvement to the overall game. I loved your all's battle of Long Island. Heck I use the pictures at my screen saver. But at 1:20 scale your table was cluttered, almost too cluttered. What would that game have looked like at 1:10? A mess ....

At least that is my lowely Colonial view of the things.

Mike B

[Belisarius]

I'll start with the British.

Lt. Col. Webster's Brigade
33rd Foot, 234 men [12 figs]
23rd Foot, 238 men [12 figs]

Maj Gen Leslie's Brigade
71st Foot, 244 men [12 figs]
IR von Bose, 321 men [16 figs]

Brigadier O'Hara's Brigade
1st Guards Battalion, 160-180 men [8-9 figs]
2nd Guards Battalion, 160-180 men [8-9 figs]
Guards Light Company, 70-90 men [4 figs]
Guards Grenadier Company, 70-90 men [4 figs]

RA 3 Pdrs, 2 guns [1 model]
RA 6 Pdrs, 4 guns [2 models]
British Legion 272 men [14 figs]
Jaeger Company, 84 men [4 figs]

Now I've added the rough 1:20 ratios at the end as a comparison with the original.

The easiest one is the Brigade of Guards. The figures match well and the option of deploying the Light Co. out should still apply with the Grenadiers probably merged with the Battalion Co. at 1:20 but maybe deployed as a separate unit at 1:10?

The figures for the 23rd and 33rd are noticeably lower, as is the now more accurate 71st figure. Von Bose likewise come out a little lighter. Jaegers are spot on again. The Legion Infantry seem to be mentioned as Legion Foot remounted so I suppose they could deploy out some as skirmishers if needed. The total for all Legion is again lower than the original. The 6 pdrs seem to be missing from the original as well. I'm not sure where the original 6 Brit skirmishers come from although they could be deployed from the line units however with the new strengths this would deplete them further.

Once the units get to these sizes I think there is a case for moving the scenario to 1:10 or maybe 1:15. My preference is for the former, partly because I've painted most of my units to this scale but mainly because from a visual view point I think the units look 'right' for the period. I think the pictures from my battle reports bear this out.

At 1:10 I'd propose.

Lt. Col. Webster's Brigade
33rd Foot, 234 men [24 figs]
23rd Foot, 238 men [24 figs]
Jaeger Company, 84 men [8 figs]
RA 6 Pdrs, 4 guns [4 models]

Maj Gen Leslie's Brigade
71st Foot, 244 men [24 figs]
IR von Bose 1st Wing, 321 men [16 figs]
IR von Bose 2nd Wing, 321 men [16 figs]
RA 3 Pdrs, 2 guns [2 model]

Brigadier O'Hara's Brigade
1st Guards Battalion, 160-180 men [16 figs]
2nd Guards Battalion, 160-180 men [16 figs]
Guards Light Company, 70-90 men [8 figs] (option as skirmishers)
Guards Grenadier Company, 70-90 men [8 figs] (independent unit or combine with Line Cos.)
British Legion Cavalry [28 figs] (option 8 figs to be deployed as skirmishers and attached to Leslie's Brigade)

I'm not sure on the artillery ratios though and to be honest we need to look at how the American forces work out to see how the overall balance looks. The American listing is much more detailed and will take a while to pull together. Obviously a lot of the smaller militia contingents will be consolidated.

Later

Andy
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[Belisarius]

[Axebreaker]

I'm getting ready this summer to try this system out.I'm american,but I live in Germany.
We plan on a demo game at an event to attract more players to this system and period as there are not very many players that I'm aware of over here.
We decided to use Guilford Courthouse scenario if possible due to the diverse nature of the troops that offer commanders different troop types to command and of course the battle itself is very interesting!
The 3 of us are pooling our resources together to field the required number of troops and it is a challenge for us at 1to20(28mm)as given in the scenario.If you change the system to 1to10 then things would be very difficult.I agree with my fellow american in that in England you have alot more players to pool your resources,but across the waters it is not as easy.So,I hope you stay at 1to20.

[Ronan the Librarian]

[mikeb]

Ronan says:

"With only ten units - one or two more than you would have at 1:20 - and three guns, in two lines, I would hardly call the GCH battlefield cluttered. For the outnumbered British to succeed, they need the maximum number of units possible in order to maintain the same level of tactical flexibility and responsiveness (ie reserves) as Cornwallis had on the day. "

.............. I also like the flexibility that BG! offers with 1:20 or 1:10. But I think maybe we have two competing issues: (1) Playability (2) Historic Representation. I would argue that the GCH scenario from the rule book is the perfect compromise between the two. As a collecting and painting project it is reasonable and with a little work you can get playing rather quickly. And while the author had to compromise with the historic OB's and unit sizes you are still faced with a very good model of the battle.

If you have plenty of models and the time and table space, then 1:10, without question, would give you a more historic battle.

I just wanted to let the author and others know what attracted me to BG! and what I think makes it work. Take the Camden scenario. It is very well done, it is probably as historically accurate as can be and I would love to try it. But in order for me to play it, I will need to find a way, if possible, to convert it to 1:20. It is the only way I can make it match my collection of units, table size and time constraints.

Interesting discussion ...
Mike B

[Eclaireur]

Belisarius et al,
a few points in response:

1. Yes, revised GCH will go into Scenario Book 3 when eventually it appears. There are some OOB issues as we've discovered previously. Also, since I wrote the original scenario , I've done some more primary research and visited the battlefield. My own views have changed somewhat about the battle. Also there's that great new book, which I also have...
2. Let's not get hung up on the issue of troop scales. I will scale the new scenario at 1:15 but frankly going down to 1:10 or up to 1:20 shouldn't tax the maths skills of the average player too much should it ? the mechanics of the scenario remain exactly the same at all three scales.
3. Axebreaker - good luck with your play test. If I'm honest I think GCH might be a bit of a tough starter because it is almost like three successive battles and can therefore take a long time to play. I might exploit the new rules for re-deployment moves (see p2 of these threads 'new rules for larger games') to make the transitions from fighting one defence line to the next swifter. In the mean time, if you are going to put on a BG game at a show, maybe use Bunker Hill as your starter ? It's one almost everyone has heard of and it plays quite quickly.

regards
EC

[Axebreaker]

[Gentleman Johnny]

The variable figure scale ratio is a splendid aspect of BG! Some battles simply work better at different ratios to others - and some would be unplayable if everything was set at 1:20. Personaly I like the look of larger units; 12figs just doesn't seem enough... so this means I generally fiddle the OB's to get them to work with a smallest unit size of about 16figs (excluding skirmishers and cavalry of course), therefore I tend to end up doing part of the bigger engagements... this also means they fit my table better too (6x4 should be enough most of the time IMHO) BUT the key aspect here is tend and BG! allows tweaking to taste admirably.
CGH-wise LongObstinate&Bloody is really-rather-good, but WHY are there no route/date lines to follow on the maps during the Race-to-the-Dan and subsequent to that?? It seems like displaying a map of the Atlantic with a text at the bottom stating that Nelson chased Villneurve's fleet to The West Indies and back before Trafalgar - but not showing the routes... makes the maps a-bit-more-pointless than they would be with some arrows-and-dates... BUT This is my only complaint so far (apart form one apparently garbled date) it would help though... Nearly half-way, but reading it slowly on purpose.
Mikeb gave it 'Five Cannon Balls' but I think Double-Shotted-with-Canister as well!

[Cornet]

While I believe the Battle of Guilford Courthouse is a must-have scenario, it is one among scores of must-have scenarios ... and one among literally hundreds of encounters during the war:

Must-Have Battles
Battle of Princeton
Battle of Wyoming
Battles of Quebec
Battle of Vincennes
Battle of Fort Ticondiroga
Battle of Longue-Pointe (Montreal)
Battle of Stony Point
...

Other Fascinating Battles
Battle of White Marsh
Battle of Gloucester (not Gloucester Point!)
Battle of Valley Forge (yes, really)
Battle of Piscataway
Battle of Short Hills
Raid at Springfield, NJ
Battle of Sandusky
Battle of Olentangy
Capture of Fort Billingsport
...

I could go on and on and on. Why would we want to keep covering the same ground? It would be nice to have a perfected Guilford Courthouse scenario, but I'd rather not have to pay for it twice.

Press forward! Onward, lads!
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Then let us fill a bumper, and drink a health to those
Who carry caps and pouches, and wear the loup'ed clothes.

[Cornet]

Ronan has mentioned elsewhere that some battles have already been selected or are in serious consideration for the next scenario book, but I should probably note them again and add them to the above list for completeness:

Must-Have Battles
Battle of Red Bank (Fort Mercer)
Battle of Iron Hill / Cooch's Bridge

Other Fascinating Battles
Battle of Barren Hill

Bonus suggestion:

The Ultimate AWI What-If Battle
Battle of the Clouds

_________________
Then let us fill a bumper, and drink a health to those
Who carry caps and pouches, and wear the loup'ed clothes.

[Eclaireur]

Gents
there are some good ideas coming through here - even some new ones
The issue of playability has to come into these decisions. I'm personally interested in the siege of Quebec but I'm not sure for many reasons whether it makes a great game. Stony Point is an important battle historically, but an awful lot depends on whether the British can be stood to when the American attack goes in. Would the whole thing then in essence depend upon one 'have they been spotted' dice roll ?
Anyway ones in the above discussion that might be on the list to join Long Island and GCH in SB 3 could be: Red Bank, Princeton and White Marsh. I approached the group (Greater London ?) that put on 'Battle of the Clouds' at Salute 08, telling them I would happily include it as a scenario but they've come over all shy and I've never heard from them. If anyone knows the leading lights in that group, get them to PM me.
EC