General de Brigade

Artist · Joined: 19 Mar 2009 Posts: 26

I know that traditionally Drummers wore reversed colours but I think I read somewhere that this did not apply to "Royal" regiments, i.e. those with blue facings. Is this correct? I am currently painting up the 4th of Foot and I would be interested to know what people think.

The Fife and Drum website seems to show red coats with blue facings for the drummers of the 4th.

Gentleman Johnny · Joined: 10 Jul 2008 Posts: 178 Location: Manchester GB

Hello Artist,
You are quite correct; no colour reversing if the facing is blue. This will apply to Guards and the 16th LD as well as the 'Royal' line regiments.
Enjoy the painting!
GJ

Ronan the Librarian · Major Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 833

Lace on the drummers' coats for Royal line regiments (but not the Guards) would be yellow with a central dark blue line:-

http://www.fifedrum.org/crfd/BD_1R.htm
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Giles · Captain Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 794 Location: London

This 25mm recreation might be helpful:

http://gilesallison.blogspot.com/2007/07/4th-foot-kings-own-royal-regiment.html

RMD · Fusilier Joined: 04 Feb 2005 Posts: 249

Just to add:

Drummers of regiments with red, white and black facings were also an oddity, as they all had white coats, faced red (though the drum would be painted in the appropriate facing colour).

These regiments also all had the St George's Cross on a white field as their regimental colour.

Tarleton 1971 · Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:12 am Post subject: that was very Helpful

thanks for the info
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Ronan the Librarian · Major Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 833

RMD · Fusilier Joined: 04 Feb 2005 Posts: 249

I thought that changed well prior to 1776? Were the 64th still using their old colour?

DJB24124 · Joined: 25 Apr 2009 Posts: 19

My rendition of the 64th. will be using the black colour. What other reason is there for painting the 64th?

DaveB.

GMB Designs · Joined: 01 Jul 2009 Posts: 1

Black would look great, but this is what I found :

From the 1768 Royal Warrant -

'The second Colour of those Regiments which are faced red or white, is to be the red cross of saint George in a white field, and the union in the upper canton. The second Colour of those faced in black, is to be the St George cross throughout; union in the upper canton; the three other cantons black.

In fact this was never put into effect, the Regimental Colour of Regiments with black facings being as those with red or white facings.'

RMD · Fusilier Joined: 04 Feb 2005 Posts: 249

Graham,

They certainly had a white colour during the Napoleonic Wars - the colour still survives in the Staffs museum.

I thought that prior to 1768 they did indeed have a black colour (with red St George's Cross). so are you saying that they also had a white colour prior to that date, but then chose to ignore the 1768 regulation?

Ronan the Librarian · Major Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 833

Graham/Mark

Regarding Drummers, Fifers and Musicians of Regiments of Foot with black facings, there is actually no specific mention of them in the 1768 Warrant, the presumption being that they were included in the generality of those regiments whose coats were the facing colour, faced with red. However, trawling through Strachan I found the following references to the drummers/fifers coats of the four (later five) black-faced regiments. Contrary to my earlier post, this means they probably had white small clothes as well.

"His majesty has been pleased to approve of the Drummers' coats of the 70th Regiment of Foot being changed from black to white cloth."
Adjutant-General to Thomas Fauquier Esqre, 21st November 1780.

"Relative to the colour of the clothing of the Drummers and Fifers of the 58th Regiment being changed from black to white.....His Majesty has been pleased to permit the said change to take place."
Adjutant-General to Lieutenant-General Scott, 30th December 1795.

"The coats of the Drummers and Fifers of the 50th, 58th, 64th, 70th and 89th Regiments, are in all future clothings of the said Regiments, to be made of white cloth, instead of black, according to former regulation; and to have black cuffs, collars and facings. The waistcoat and breeches are to be white."
Adjutant-General to Thomas Fauquier Esqre, 21st January 1796

Regarding colours of those regiments (bear in mind that remarking on the state/design of the colours only became an official part of the Inspection Report from 1770 onwards) -

According to inspection returns for the 50th Foot, that regiment received issues of colours in 1763, 1778 and 1786; none of the inspection returns records the colours being white, or in any way non-regulation, even though the 1786 inspection remarks on the 1777(1778) colours being so bad that virtually only the poles remained.

The 58th Foot are recorded as receiving colours in 1763, again no mention of white.

The 64th received colours in 1766, again no reference to them being non-regulation.

There are no surviving records regarding the issue of colours to the 70th and 89th Foot between 1768 and 1796.

I think it is possible that any change of field colour for the Regimental Colour from black to white may have occurred either somewhere around the end of the AWI and after on a regiment-by-regiment basis, or quite possibly around 1796, in concert with the changes in the clothing of the drummers from black coats with red facings, to white coats with black facings.