General de Brigade

[Simon Alderson]

The rules discuss infantry companies and armoured regiments. I am clear as to what an infantry company is. however what size is an armoured regiment? These vary between nationality, and year.

I can't imagine many games which would feature an entire armoured regiment.

Thanks

Simon

[Eclaireur]

Simon,
it all rather depends on whether you take a tank miniature to represent two or three real tanks. If you take it to be three, a British armoured squadron could be 5 minis (four troops of three each + sqn hq). Now, make that 2 squadrons and another mini for Regt HQ and you only get to 11 minis. Remember that a Brit armoured regt would most often have 1 squadron detached so you dont even need to go the full three squadrons. If you did, and added another 3 light tanks for recce troop you'd get to 19 minis. If you look at a Russian tank battalion, that's pretty easy to deploy too - 7 or 10 models, depending on whether you do 3 or 2 tanks per mini.
regards
EC

[Simon Alderson]

I suppose it depends on how you define the word "Regiment"? German Regiments were two battalions. I assume that one battalion would be a "Regiment" for the purposes of the rules?

I am concerned because I played a game a few days ago. The German player lost half of his Panzer IV's. He claimed that he didn't need a unit morale check as he wasn't fielding a full Regiment. (He was fielding four tanks).

Any thoughts?

Thanks


Simon

[DCRBrown]

Simon,

For game purposes a "regiment" is any armoured formation fielding at least three complete squadrons.
Squadron strength is deemed to be four model vehicles BUT this will vary according to nationality and year, so players will need to agree beforehand on squadron size to arrive at their respective "regimental" (battalion) strength.

See p11. 2.13. as well.

DB

[R Mark Davies]

I was going to write a VERY long answer to this, but having discussed it with Dr Brown, I'll write up a few organisation tables for late-war stuff and they'll be available for download.

Briefly though, if you opt for the full 1:2 ratio, you could have as many as 9 British tank models in a squadron (three squadrons to a regiment - in the Briitsh army an armoured regiment=a battalion, three armoured regiments=a brigade) or the same in a German panzer company (four companies to a panzer battalion, two battalions to a panzer regiment).

Mark

[Eclaireur]

Simon,
we will all benefit from any organisational tables that Mark Davies posts as he's done an enormous amount of research on this topic.
The study of this topic is made more complex by the different terminology and organisation of the armies. A British 'regiment' is, as others have pointed out, no more than a battalion. A full strength German tank company (22 tanks) would, at some point of the war, been bigger than a Soviet tank battalion (21 tanks). A Soviet tank brigade, with a few infantry companies attached, might then have been about the same strength as a German kampfgruppe based on a tank battalion.
Once a few battle losses have been factored in, and using a 1:3 ratio, it's actually perfectly possible to imagine games under this ruleset being played with brigade (British or Russian terminology) or regiment (German) sized forces on a reasonable sized table. You could have, say, 20 tank models on one side, + a couple of companies of infantry, nder such a scheme.
regards
EC

[R Mark Davies]

Something that's often overlooked is the reliability of the different nationalities, as well as the level of battlefield replacements. In Normandy 1944, the Germans were at the end of an extended and frequently interdicted supply line - fuel, ammunition and tank replacements were very hard to come by and the tanks weren't very reliable to start with!

For example, Wittmann's company of 14 Tigers arrived at Villers-Bocage after a single day's road march from the rail head, with only 5 tanks serviceable (and one of those was unfit for action)! Compare this to British squadrons, where the full complement of 19 tanks was almost always available, due to good mechanical reliability, an excellent line of communication (albeit by sea!) and VERY fast replacement of casualties.

Take as another example, the case of Operation Goodwood - over 500 Allied armoured vehicles destroyed in two days (but with relatively low crew losses - on average one crewman lost per destroyed vehicle) - yet this did not even use up the available spare vehicle pool IN NORMANDY! It was only when operating at the wrong end of a difficult supply line (such as Operation Market-Garden) that Allied armour ever started a battle seriously depleted, whereas examples of full-strength German armoured companies are very rare indeed after the initial engagements in Normandy.

Anyway, having waffled on a bit - a British infantry company would look like this:

1x Company Commander
1x 2-inch Mortar
1x PIAT section (or one rifle section can be designated as having PIATs)
3x Platoon Commander
9x Rifle Sections

There were four companies to a British infantry battalion, as well as a Support Company with the following assets:

Antitank Platoon
3x 6pdr Antitank Guns (6 actual guns)
3x Lloyd Carriers (unarmed)

Pioneer Platoon
2x Assault Pioneer Sections (possibility of flamethrower, though not official issue) - there was also a third section, which was not designated as 'assault'
2x Jeeps (unarmed)

Mortar Platoon
3x 3-inch Mortars (6 actual weapons)
3x Universal Carriers (unarmed)

Carrier Platoon
1x Platoon Commander
4x Rifle Sections (recce) - 2 with PIATs
4x Universal Carriers (armed with LMGs & 2-inch mortars)

The battalion commander could have a variety of transport: Universal Carrier (unarmed), jeep (unarmed), Humber FWD field car, Humber Scout Car, Humber LRC, C15TA armoured truck, halftrack, White Scout Car...

A battery of divisional field artillery would be directly attached to the battalion ('in spirit' - they would actually be several miles back with the rest of their Field Regiment) - the two artillery troop commanders (i.e. FOOs) would be directly attached and would typically ride in Universal Carriers (unarmed).

A battalion would also usually receive the services of other divisional troops:

MG Platoon (from divisional MG battalion):
1x Platoon Commander
2x Vickers MMGs
2x Universal Carriers (fitted so thet the MMGs may be fired from the Carriers)

Towed Antitank Troop
1x Troop Commander
2x 6pdr Antitank Guns with APDS (these were in the process of being replaced in 1944)
2x Lloyd Carriers
or:
2x 17pdr Antitank Guns (APDS fom approx Aug 44)
2x Quad Tractors (or halftracks in armoured divs, or C15TAs for Canadians)

Armour - usually a minimum of one squadron attached, sometimes a whole regiment.

Anyway, hope this gets you going - more later.

Mark

[DCRBrown]

All,

Right to get to the core of this issue.
The reason for proposing AFV Command units was to allow for an AFV command representation within the Battlegroup. I.E. If the Battlegroup has a significant armoured element, or is indeed an armoured formation, then an armoured command, below that of the HQ, should be represented. The use of English terminology to describe this, through the use of the term AFV Regimental Command Unit, has lead to a bit of confusion, esp. when applied to other nationalities.

Therefore I intend to replace AFV Regimental Command Unit with Tank Group Commander. Thus any Battlegroup fielding twelve (12) or more armoured units (that's model tanks, armoured cars and TD's only) is entitled to field a tank group commander. This represents either a British senior squadron commander or representative of the regimental HQ; a German senior company commander or representative from the battalion; a Russian battalion commander or US senior company commander or battalion representative.

Thoughts?

DB

PS For senior level morale tests "Tank Group" will replace AFV regiment.