General de Brigade

[andy]

Another question, for my clarification really...

Infantry and Armoured Assault Combat Groups are specifically Infantry and Armoured only.

The only combined (AFV + Infantry) Combat groups permitted are the Standard ones.

Assuming this is correct, why are the Infantry Assault Combat Groups not allowed AFV support ?

Andy

[DCRBrown]

Andy,

I was actually thinking about this very thing the other day on one of the rare occasions I take the tube into work!

I'm still undecided, I'm still inclined towards the line that to actually put together a properly coordinated tank/inf assault takes careful planning and execution, not something often seen on the battlefield.
At the moment you can carry out such an assault - but it will require two seperate command orders - one for the tanks followed by a secondary assault order for the inf. This takes into account the fact that to coordinate such a combined assault, with both tanks and inf advancing neatly together was pretty difficult in reality. I suspect that most of the time in these sort of larger attacks the tanks quickly out paced the inf., or if the armour faced AT weapons, slowed right up in order to let the inf go on and clear the way for them.

Secondly there's also the fact I don't want to over burden the command orders phase with loads of different combat group types/orders.

The other (lesser) half of me thinks - why not introduce a combined AFV/Inf assault move/combat group? It would have to be very restrictive to take into account the coordination needed, (or rather lack of it), with say a max of 8 units permitted in the group. However should one include minimum numbers of AFV's or Inf within the combat group?, etc. etc.?
And also was this just a Russian tactic?

If you've got any good examples, or any thoughts for or against, let me know.

DB

[Eclaireur]

David,
I'm not sure that combined infantry/tank assaults were as rare as you suggest. You've got the Russkie tanks rider chaps doing it quite often. And in quite alot of those engagements you read about in memoirs of the Churchill guys like 9 RTR you get the impression Brit attacks in the Normandy or Reichswald fighting often involved tank/infantry teams moving forward together.
If you think the coordination was so hard, why not say that such an attack, using 8 units, involves the phasing player using ALL his command points to launch such an attack + its accompanying artillery fire mission ? And say it must be a minimum of 4 points.
regards
EC

[DCRBrown]

Ec,

I really see the Brit examples you mention as already covered by the use of standard combat groups BUT I do like the idea of some kind of all out tank/inf assault! Again I think this is more akin to the Russian tactics, but I'm sure there could be examples of other nationalities using it.

I think the idea of using all your command points is perhaps better as it concentrates the mind of the commander somewhat! Or to complicate things, if you want to incude arty support as well then you need say, a minimum of 4?


DB

[Evil Dick]

Using the ruling for assault moves and stating that they use more points is a mxed blessing....for both sides ;-)
It would probably be better to drop the total number of elements allowed in a combined assault to be less than in a normal assault...
Such as 6 in a combined assault, with 8 for the normal....
There are plenty of examples of combined assaults.....especially within the built-up areas in 1944 and 1945 era.
However, throughout the war most organisations tended to think of each arm (artillery, infantry, tank) to operate separately, within its own command structure....
Even the vaunted Germans found this out....
It usually ended up being the tanks advanced, and the poor Sobs of infantry followed. Often it was found communcation on the battleground was virtually impossible between the infantry and tanks....
Not until the advent of telephone sockets on the back of Shermans did they get anywhere near proper coordination.....
...Other than the riders chatting to the tank commander popping out of his hatch.....which proved deadly under fire.......
This makes it very difficult to judge......
I would suggest movement is at slowest elements rate, and only 6 elements allowed to assault move together.....for 1 pip.
_________________
Evil Dick ;-)